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The Seal of Ivan IV
This is an honest attempt to blast all stupid Snobfics out of the water. If I repeat it loud and long enough, they might all go away. Hell, I can dream, can’t I?

What do I mean by Snobfics? Essentially any HP universe centred fic that contains any character having or pertaining to have a title, either in Britain, or Western Europe. It just won’t do. As a lifelong socialist, I find this insistence (and I’m sorry it tends to come from over that side of the Atlantic most, believe me, Lords are just not that hot) that there even are titles in the Wizarding World tired and tiresome. Here follows a Brit's rant on the title structure as it really is, as well as a good deal of sarcasm as to the more irritating cliches in fanfic...

The reason it is tiresome, is that, like all good socialists, I’m as big a snob as the best of them, but the difference is, I know my stuff. Sadly, most Snobfic writers do not. I’ll touch on the worst offences later, but for now, let’s set the ground rules and talk facts on the British Aristocracy. A field guide, if you like. That’s the most relevant, because it’s the area that is usually written so hilariously wrong, in Harry Potter fic. Only it is not that simple, because we have two aristocracies here in Britain (three if you count Northern Ireland – but Northern Ireland has tended to follow the English model). The two are England and Scotland. There are a number of things in common, seeing as much of the titles and honorifics devolve from Norman practice, following the Norman Conquest in 1066, and then the accession of the Angevin Kings, beginning with Henry II in 1154.

First of all, comes the sovereign, and their children who are Princes and Princesses. They may have titles like, Duke of this, Duchess of that. Prince Charles is Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Earl of Chester, and Lord of the Isles. He has more titles than that, but those are the main ones. His titles are part of the package that comes with being Heir to the English Throne.

Below royalty the ranks in descending order of hereditary titles are as follows:

Duke. Originally this senior title was exclusively royal until the later Middle Ages, when the title was passed to very honoured Royal servants (who were frequently royal connections). Most non-royal Ducal titles are actually somewhat late in creation, and post-date the end of the Wars of the Roses in 1485. This is a great watershed of aristocratic snobbery – generally if your family can trace descent to before the Battle of Bosworth, you are very smart indeed. There is only one non-royal Duke who can actually do this, and that is the Duke of Norfolk, who is Hereditary Earl Marshal of England (a post that determines questions of precedence at, say, coronations) and the Premier Peer of England. Other Dukedoms were created since 1485. Only others that predate 1485 are: Lancaster (absorbed into the crown holdings in 1399), York – extinct in the Wars of the Roses, though later used normally for the second son of the Reigning Monarch, Suffolk (extinct after Bosworth, and gifted to a royal connection by Edward IV). Dukes got more common as the Tudors tended to reward their followers, and under the Stuarts got positively vulgar, as every “for-show” husband to some royal Mistress became the Duke of Whatever.

Dukes are invariably Duke of Wherever, not Duke Wherever.

Children of Dukes usually have courtesy titles. These are usually Lord or Lady, except in the case of the heir, usually eldest son (title succession in England and Scotland tends to be by strict male primogeniture). It is possible to tell such courtesy titles by the fact that the holder is addressed not as Lord Rothesay, but as Lord Nicholas Rothesay. The eldest son normally carries his father’s second best title, maybe Marquess or Earl.

There are very few Scottish dukes, and those titles are usually quite recent creations.

The wife of a Duke is a Duchess.

Marquess. This is the next title down; children of Marquesses tend to be Lord or Lady, except the heir who will have his father’s second best title, generally Earl or Viscount. The same rules apply to the Marquess’s sons and daughters that they will be Lady Penelope Cadogan, or the like.

Marquesses too, are usually Marquess of Wherever, not Marquess Wherever.

The wife of a Marquess is a Marchioness. The title may also be spelled Marquis, but Marquess is more correct.

Earl. This is generally an older title than Duke or Marquess. A good many Dukedoms started life as Earldoms (e.g. the Duke of Northumberland, was Earl of Northumberland in the Middle Ages). His son would be Lord Anthony Percy, except the eldest son who might be Viscount Althorp, in the case of the son of Earl Spencer.

Earls can be either the Earl of Snowdon, or Earl Spencer. There are pitfalls here for the unwary. There is no rule to this, one just knows what is correct. Or doesn’t, and makes a fool of oneself.

The Earl’s wife is a Countess. We do not have Counts in the UK. Count is invariably a continental title.

Viscount. Generally this is a courtesy title held by an eldest son of a higher-ranking nobleman. His wife is a Viscountess. Their children are NOT Lords but bear the Prefix Honourable before their name, as in the Honourable Jane Spencer.

Baron. The lowest rank in the Peerage (and therefore entitled to sit in the House of Lords) is the Baron. All higher ranked peers above are also entitled to sit in the House of Lords. He is called Lord Smith, not Baron Smith. His wife is Lady Smith. Women who hold this title in their own right, are generally referred to as Baroness Powell.

There are also Barons who have been given what is called a Life Peerage, generally for services to the crown. The holder’s children cannot inherit this title. Women who are awarded life peerages, are generally called Baroness Thing.

Baronet. This title is not that of a peer. The owner is generally termed thus: Sir Richard Thomas, Bt. His wife is Lady Thomas. Their children have no titles.

Below this, just to cause even more confusion are the families of old and aristocratic lineage who have NO titles. However, they would regard their families as being of equally stellar lineage to any peer. Examples of this would be the Sackville family of Kent, who own a castle and have been in county records since the Middle Ages. They might look down on a good many titles as lately and vulgar. They would properly be termed “Landed Gentry”.

In Scotland, in addition to the titles listed, there are also Highland aristocrats, generally heads of the old Scottish Clans. They are generally termed Laird or sometimes The Something of the Something, e.g., The Montcreif of that Ilk. Which means the clan head of the Montcreifs.

Now to move onto the whole fic thing. Aristocracy and status first.

Confused? That’s why it is good advice to the fic writer to tread carefully. There are probably a good many fanfic writers and readers who are now thinking, “Picky bitch”. Maybe. But as a Brit it is sometimes deeply painful seeing the canon rape that goes on around my own country. Generally I’ll overlook certain errors, but the point will come when the back button is just too attractive. That’s why I assert – if you haven’t a clue, or cannot get someone who has, to look stuff over, leave it alone. There’s plenty stuff any writer will know, if they think on a bit, the canon books provide a good deal of background, the Lexicon is a resource many other fandoms might envy. Generally, I’d say, if it ain’t in canon, leave it alone. Which means titles.

There are no titles referenced in canon, and that’s good enough for me. With one exception, there is a Lord in Harry Potter canon, and that is of course, Lord Voldemort. His title is actually bogus and self-styled. Well it would be, wouldn’t it? Tiresome little grubby parvenu.

If anyone else were going to have a title in canon, it would surely be Lucius Malfoy. Think of it. A Norman sounding name, which is usually the provenance of the oldest British aristocracy. He’s rich as Croesus, and exudes aristocratic hauteur. He’s an appalling snob, and generally true aristocrats are too entirely secure in their status to be snobbish or overbearing. However, he has not got a title, he is clearly plain Mr Malfoy. If he had a title, you can bet he’d use it. And his son, Draco would never fail to mention it any chance he got.

The chief fanon other candidate for the old title thing, is none other than Professor Snape. I generally hit the back button the minute anyone ascribes a title to Snape, because it reeks of wish fulfilment by the bad author. This man who insists on being called Professor is apparently so egalitarian he does not mind it when people omit his noble title. I’ve seen him Duke, Lord, Earl, Viscount. And usually filthy rich, to boot. Perleeze.

Final verdict being, leave the titles alone. Do not call your Mary Sue “Lady Elinor Sparkly-Poo” or I will come and mock you. I will also bring my friends to mock you, too. If J K Rowling has not indicated that a canon character is a member of the British Aristocracy by the end of Book 5, you can be sure that her reasons are simply that the character does not have a title. There is no sudden revelation scheduled around the existence of the Earl of Snape. Forget it. Accordingly, I will not forgive you for deciding any canon character must have one. And I do not care if it is fanfiction. It is Harry Potter fanfiction, and I'll therefore thank you to keep it recognisable as such.

Which brings me to part two of my rant.

Snape Effing Manor…

Snape Manor surely deserves a place in the Pantheon of Cliché in fanfic. Let me first of all state clearly, Manor Houses are incredibly rare in the UK. A Manor House was generally a hold over from Mediaeval Times being the abode of the Feudal overlord. The only actual manor houses left are houses that either were begun in building terms back then, or stand on the site of an original mediaeval manor. There are hardly any. Yet the innocent reader of fanfic would be forgiven for assuming that every British person lives in one, or near to one.

We do not all have Manor Houses!

Once again, there is only one known canon character living in a Manor House, and that is our slippery Lucius. We know this because Mr Borgin says so in Chamber of Secrets. The indication at all times is that the Malfoy’s wealth and status is exceptional. The majority of the canon characters seem to be of Middle class or lower backgrounds. Generally, the overall impression is of suburban, Home Counties backgrounds.

On to Snape. His class origins are interesting, so say the least. There are a good many questions and they may well prove important in canon. Is he Pureblood? Generally his being Head of Slytherin would indicate so, though it is important to remember that Tom Riddle was not Pureblooded. I incline to the idea that Snape is Pureblooded. For reasons, which I’ll explain.

I’ve read a number of posited back stories for Snape, here’s my digest version. Order of the Phoenix gives just a hint of not, old money but rather, new poverty. Or possibly old money that has become new poverty. That fly blown bedroom is not screamingly indicative of material comfort. Nor for that matter, are greying scanties. Greying scanties indicates a shortage of scanties, not poor personal hygiene. Generally, white clothes grey with overwear and overwashing. There’s a rather sad shabbiness about Snape-the-teenager.

However, there’s a touch of class about Snape to me, humiliating scenes notwithstanding. It’s been suggested elsewhere that a true aristocrat would not swear the way Snape has been known to do, nor would one spit in public. That may well obtain among Boston Brahmins; however, I can promise that the true British aristocrat is entirely without qualm when it comes to bad behaviour. He sets his own standards of behaviour, and be damned to anyone else. Concern with what others think is the mark of the bourgeoisie.

His innate class is shown in one of his finest moments – his bravura handling of Dolores Umbridge in Order of the Phoenix. When she, and all the Gryffindor students are shrieking about Veritaserum, the kidnapping of Sirius Black, etc. he is as cool and unhurried as you like. He pauses to make a masterful remark to Crabbe or Goyle, about slackening their grip on Longbottom (and think about it, he may save Neville from death or injury here) and then makes a “courtly bow” to Umbridge. To me he is upper class to the tips of his long fingers here. He exudes class.

I think the Snape’s lost their money, either suddenly, or over time. I think they are Pureblood former Wizarding aristocracy, who naturally resent their lack of present day lustre. Sitting ducks for the Voldemort line. One quick whisper of “We are the dispossessed princes of the Wizarding World” and I suspect teenage Snape was asking where he could get one of those cool tattoos like his friend Lucius.

So at some point, this Pureblooded family became déclassé, Snape Manor was either sold, or if it is still in the family, it is riddled with dry rot and heavily encumbered with death duties.

The other piece of evidence that effectively blows Snape Manor sky high, is the fact that if Snape is a titled and monied aristocrat, what the hell is he doing spending fourteen years in a job he neither needs nor likes? Please do not try to convince me that he is a magical Mr Chips hiding behind a façade of ill temper. The guy hates kids. He is also spending his Christmases at Hogwarts. I somehow think if there were a luxuriously appointed Manor House, he would be spending Yuletide there, not being insulted by Vulture Hats falling out of crackers.

So to wrap up - why? Why the Snobbery in fanfiction? Wish fulfilment I suppose. It’s not just badfic that oozes Snape Manors and bogus titles, I can think of a number of highly rated fics, which are redolent of snobbery.

Perhaps the writer, who fancies Snape, can only excuse fancying him, and self-insertion if she thinks it will involve endogamy – marriage for an increase in wealth and status.

Social climbing by means of badfic, then. Living life vicariously is never a good idea.

Comments

[info]narcissam wrote:
Jul. 17th, 2004 04:07 pm (UTC)
Quite an interesting rant. I've got sick of fics where Lord Snape suddenly makes an appearance, and even more sick of Lord Draco. In fact, I once read a fic where Lucius Malfoy was the king of Magical Britain, a fact left out by canon so far.

[info]pharnabazus, however, reminds me that there is some evidence of titles in canon. The Bloody Baron, for one, and there are some titles among the Chocolate Frog Cards, which [info]pharnabazus will swear up and down were written by JKR, but not everyone agrees with him, I must admit, though Lexicon!Steve does. :-) I don't see this as a problem, though, that certain wizards picked up titles through the centuries, or that titled persons picked up magic through the centuries.

What's important to remember though would be that a Muggle title is not something the wizarding world would sit *gaping* at. A titleless pureblood family like the Malfoys, or the Crouches, or the Longbottoms, is more important than someone whose great-grandfather acquired a Muggle title. It's the blood, not the title.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure I agree that Lucius Malfoy does have fabulous amounts of wealth. See The cost of maintaining a patronage network: is Lucius Malfoy really that rich? by Alec Dossetor. Alec has me pretty convinced here, as in most things. It's that mesmerizing writing style, I think.

NM
[info]narcissam wrote:
Jul. 17th, 2004 04:11 pm (UTC)
PS. What's with all the Malfoy Manors in HP? Yes, I pleady guilty, once in a fit of North American insanity, but how many houses are named like that? I changed mine to Naddercombe Manor much later.

Also, manors are not stupendous American millionaire palaces. I once dug up pictures of every manor in Wiltshire to demonstrate this to someone. The Malfoys have magic, so it's probably a nice place, but it is not a Las Vegas hotel.

NM
[info]zoepaleologa wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 05:54 am (UTC)
There is a point to the idea that given that the Malfoys flaunt it so much there may not be as much as they like (does that make sense?). I think they are probably the richest we've seen - though there may be other families who are richer, but less obvious about it.

I've actually always felt the Malfoys in terms of social place are similar to the real family, the Sackvilles, who own castles and lands, but have never had a title, and yet I believe feature in the Domesday Book (you cannot get any more ancient than that) as landed. They take considerable pride in the antiquity of their lineage AND the fact that they have never had a family title. Because it implies they never toadied any monarch for one.
[info]tapedeck wrote:
Aug. 12th, 2004 09:24 am (UTC)
There is a point to the idea that given that the Malfoys flaunt it so much there may not be as much as they like.

Those who want it, flaunt it. Those who have it, know it. Or something akin to that, minus the superfluous punctuation.

And this is where I'd illustrate with an anecdote from 'Lara's Bumper Fun Book of Boarding School Tales: Slightly Inbred Old Money and/or Old Name Girls Schooling Abroad for Gap Year', but I'm sure you can guess what that would contain.
[info]amelot wrote:
Jul. 17th, 2004 04:48 pm (UTC)
This is a fantastic rant--very interesting! Do you know of any books that might go into all of this in more detail? I'm finding it all very fascinating, but I don't know anything about any of this, and I'd really like to learn more.

Thank you for writing this. It's a good read.
[info]zoepaleologa wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 05:57 am (UTC)
I checked most of my information on the title structure after I drafted this rant, just to be sure I hadn't screwed up.

Here's a couple I found, I just googled "British Titles":

http://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/titles05.html

http://members.shaw.ca/jobev/title.html

And are useful resources for writers.
[info]nocturnus33 wrote:
Jul. 17th, 2004 06:35 pm (UTC)
Maybe I remember wrong, but Snape spit at the quidditch pit while he was about to be the referee. Not very classy and snobish at all.
[info]zoepaleologa wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 05:59 am (UTC)
I've seen that said before. Folk have suggested that because he spits, he's rude and common. Rudeness and aristrocratic origins are certainly not mutually exclusive. I've met real aristrocrats, some were wonderfully well-mannered, others were frankly dreadful.
[info]nocturnus33 wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 06:01 am (UTC)
That's true. In Chile spitting is a "No, No" for classy people, also I was wondering if that couldn't be some sort of "rite" (in abscense of a better word) in sports.
[info]rachelsummers77 wrote:
Jul. 17th, 2004 09:34 pm (UTC)
Great rant--though I now have to ask, would you say that all this is common knowledge among the English (especially knowledge of titles and how they rank), or are you especially schooled in this area? Because I'm just boggled if most of you over there can keep all these titles straight...

"Order of the Phoenix gives just a hint of not, old money but rather, new poverty. Or possibly old money that has become new poverty."

I agree whole-heartedly with this; the squalor of his home plus his calling Lily Evans a mudblood made me think of the latter option..the pensieve flashbacks made me think of Anne Rice's backstory for Lestat (poor aristocrat, country lord, "harecatcher" etc)..and in a tragic sort of way, of Katerina Ivanovna in Crime and Punishment (though Snape seems so far to have weathered his filial/financial misfortunes a little better).
[info]zoepaleologa wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 09:00 am (UTC)
I'm fairly au fait with the title structure because one of my educational interests before University was the study of the Wars of the Roses, which marked a great shift in who was who in the English Aristocracy. Essentially, a good few titles did not survive that period. I tracked lineage extensively, because I once did some preliminary research for an historical novel set at that time (never written). I was looking to see if you could make up a family who shifted sides during that conflict and whose fortunes would represent in microcosm the changing fortunes of England. That was as far as I got, but the research has remained. The other reason for not continuing, was I found a stunning novel that actually does everything I would have liked to do. Called "We Speak No Treason" by Rosemary Hawley Jarman.

Essentially it's seeing repeated "titled" persons, canon or OC in HP fic that got me thinking. One recent horror had Snape-the-Viscount, and encouraged me to revive my interest.

It's a combination of the sheer hamfistedness of most "aristofics" that makes me laugh, and the basic snobbery. I just wish someone would write something where characters are ordinary, how about a working class kid who discovers magical powers and works hard? Let's be interested in characters for what they are and can do, not for their background.

I think the comparison with Lestat's backstory is pretty interesting, too. I especially remembered how he compared his own indifference to bourgeois behaviour with Louis' obsession with good form.
[info]gillieweed wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 11:50 am (UTC)
I think the comparison with Lestat's backstory is pretty interesting, too. I especially remembered how he compared his own indifference to bourgeois behaviour with Louis' obsession with good form.


"Hence, the spittin'."
[info]twilightsorcery wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 02:42 am (UTC)
::applauds::

I think the abundance of titles in fanfic is a holdover from the romance genre. As Jude Deveraux says in her delightfully snarky Remembrance, "The hero must be titled." For the average American reader (who even I admit is not terribly bright), titles are the stuff of fairy tales. Guys like Bill Gates and Donald Trump are the real thing, and who wants that?

(I have a whole rant saved up on how Americans like to pretend that we have no class system, when the truth is that it's present, active, and entirely based on money.)

And with regard to your rant about Snape, may I just say thank you? The whole idea of Snape Manor makes me want to spork people, and I think if I have to read another Armani-wearing Snape I may just do it. I don't see how, after OotP, anyone could think Snape grew up wealthy. As to class, I've tended to read and write Snape as lower class, with this intense drive to emulate the upper class (Malfoy) and pull himself up, but I'm seriously reconsidering it based on what you've said.

I'm really glad you posted this. At the risk of sounding like an idiot American, the British class system fascinates me. There's a complex set of pressures on characters (majored in English; think in terms of stories) that can drive a story from one point to another. Gosford Park had me *riveted*; my friends fell asleep. A part of me is annoyed that the ability to "read" class isn't part of my cultural heritage, but then I doubt it would be as interesting if it was. As it is, I know enough to be certain I'd sound like an idiot *writing* about it.

Oops.

Thanks for an interesting and well-deserved rant!
[info]zoepaleologa wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 06:05 am (UTC)
I must say, I find aspirational and wannabee Snape is about the only other version that works for me. He might well have a chip on his shoulder from his schooldays - where he leant to hate the pretty-boy and patrician Sirius Black.

I can think of one Sub-genre that takes the Manor House owning Snape and twists it round even further and makes me want to cry, and that is international jet-setter Snape. Who is connected to various foreign aristocracy, speaks millions of languages, is some kind of polymath dilletante and uber intellectual, plays baroque music on a harpsichord (I may be running with the ball a bit here, but you get the idea), is a wine expert, when he is not growing it in the grounds of the family chateau, etc, etc.

And all that jazz. Clearly such fics represent the snobbery of the author, or perhaps being kind, the snobbery that the author perceives her readers as having. Personally, I favour Snape the Poorboy, myself, because it is the only thing that fits in with the permanent presence at Hogwarts in a job he hates. If he was that rich, why would he bother? Having to work plays hell with international jetsetting, anyway.
[info]snapesoul wrote:
Jul. 20th, 2004 03:47 pm (UTC)
Cheers!
Loved the rant [cheering from the sidelines}. I agree wholeheartedly. On reading some fanfic, I often have to cringe at some of the situations. It is the "cringe factor" that often has me deleting the story before I have finished it. Things like crazy names (love Lady Elinor Sparkly-Poo...shall have to log that somewhere....) especially in "Mary Sue" stories (which I am not fond of.)I was reading a fairly good story by an American author the other day which was going well-even with "Snape Manor"- until she called HG's mother something completely silly - and it ruined it for me. I think it is names that really get to me more than anything. JKR has a gift for constructing names that really fit the story. Unfortunatley, some writers do not share her gift.May be a minor thing, but it can make or break a story. (Still laughing over Sparkly-Poo. I can feel a parody coming on.....)
[info]zoepaleologa wrote:
Jul. 21st, 2004 04:52 am (UTC)
Re: Cheers!
Lady Elinor Sparkly Poo is yours, provided she keeps her bloody hands off Snape!
(Anonymous) wrote:
Jul. 18th, 2004 07:20 pm (UTC)
Lovely information on the topic of titles--
June, you said:
I just wish someone would write something where characters are ordinary, how about a working class kid who discovers magical powers and works hard? Let's be interested in characters for what they are and can do, not for their background.

My reply is thus:

I have written something along these lines. It was quite fun. Heh.

Your Beta
[info]eryn_ wrote:
Jul. 25th, 2004 09:52 am (UTC)
You really should post this to [info]hp_essays as well. It deserves a wider audience.

You and [info]greythistle seem to want working-class origins. My response is the same to you. I don't care about character origins as long as they are well-described, clearly understood by the author, and the story is happy. If the story isn't happy, I am not going to like it. (My personal peeve is the literary snobbery which says a happy story cannot be as well-written as an angsty or sad one.)

I hadn't noticed the whole title thing, except that nobility only appears in bad fic. But I sure noticed the Snape-as-a-vintner thing when the writer did not know anything about wine. I am tired of writers who make things up and try to sound like experts, research and knowledge is very important.

I've also noticed there is a lot of really bad science that is commonly accepted because it endorses fluffy stories. Like, the wizarding world is declining in population and they need to increase the birthrate. Dumbledore was alive when Abraham Lincoln was, that's eight generations, and Dumbledore isn't dead yet either. If every person replaced him or herself, 2 children per couple, that's 256 people in 8 generations. Going to be awfully hard to keep that kind of population boom secret isn't it?

Titles and the secret Snape Manor make it easier for fluff to exist in the narrow minds of writers. (Why would anyone marry someone older, ugly, and poor?) That's why there are no loving relationships which do not produce children. The narrow minds of writers cannot imagine it.
[info]ex_greythist387 wrote:
Jul. 25th, 2004 11:56 am (UTC)
minor explication
([info]eryn_ notified me that she'd commented here; the pointer to your post is over here as follow-up to a different topic.)
[info]likethemodel wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2004 04:42 pm (UTC)
I haven't finished yet, but have you heard of Eddie Izzard? The line,

... assuming that every British person lives in one, or near to one.

Because that just smacks of him and: 'cause you all think we all live in castles! And we do! We're up to here with fucking castles! We just long for a bungalow ...
[info]likethemodel wrote:
Aug. 10th, 2004 05:29 pm (UTC)
I'm an ignorant American, so please forgive me for my mistakes. What I can gather from is that aristocracy goes hand-in-hand with monarchy. How can Wizard's have an aristocracy if they don't have a monarchy in the first place?
(Anonymous) wrote:
Dec. 9th, 2004 01:39 am (UTC)
Beautifully done
Thank you for the history of aristocracy and titles in the UK. I'm still confused by them which is why I'll never use them. Especially since you did so well to explain. It still confuses me.

One quick whisper of “We are the dispossessed princes of the Wizarding World” and I suspect teenage Snape was asking where he could get one of those cool tattoos like his friend Lucius.

This has to be one of my favorite arguments against Rich!Lord!Snape, along with the graying underwear. I couldn't agree more.

~Lisa/LariLee
packsim@aol.com
[info]agaricus wrote:
Dec. 15th, 2004 11:26 pm (UTC)
*applauds*

Well put, well put!!

I've long found the pretentious Lord Snape to be one of the most heinous offences of all fandom.

Hear, hear!!!
[info]nineveh_uk wrote:
Jan. 12th, 2005 08:23 am (UTC)
Great fun, thanks.

I reserve my particular Snape Manor hatred for Snape Chateau (which, of course, always has vineyards). However it does amuse me that the real Snape Castle was inhabited by the Neville family…

And Lords are, as you say, rarely that hot, with the glaring exception, of course, being Lord Peter Wimsey who could melt lead at half a mile.

Nineveh (dawdling off to find this poor!realistic!Snape fanfic)
[info]imadra_blue wrote:
May. 28th, 2005 04:24 am (UTC)
Ah, thank you, I like having these things for knwoledge. Not for HP fic, obviously, but for original stuff. Thank you! Oh, and word.
[info]mugglegirl0908 wrote:
Dec. 16th, 2005 12:31 am (UTC)
I know this was posted a while back, but thank you for this link, June. Truly enlightening.

I'll admit that when I first began my current (languishing) WIP, I totally had this image of "Lord Snape" in my head. I never mentioned a manor house or gave him a title (thank GOD), but I admit to having that in my head when I wrote it, though. I actually plan to do a bit of a re-write on it and tone down the references to his money, and I think I'll use this post as a resource.

I can absolutely see Snape's family (which we know are the Prince's now) as having lost their money. I think that's how I'll approach it in my fic, actually.

Question, though. Out of curiosity, how do you think the new information we've been given in HBP affects any of this? Do you think the Prince's are former aristocracy? I'm really not trying to be a smart-arse, I'm genuinely curious. It would be interesting, I think, to hear whether your views on this were changed at all by HBP and if there is any "new" advice you'd give to authors on how to "deal" with Snape. :)
[info]tanit_goddess wrote:
Sep. 10th, 2006 10:53 pm (UTC)
In HBP we are clearly told that the wizerding world doses not have nobility so you have been justified in that. Narcessam is right however in that nobility could have got magic or magic folk picking up titles but the wizerding world simply dose not care. They are British however & are aware of the crown, nobility, society and so on and so forth. And I am sure that while they may find blood purity more worthy of bragging about they do try to keep up with the Jones as it were.

This leads us to people like the Malfoy’s who do seem like “the families of old and aristocratic lineage who have NO titles.” The name, the manor house, the haughty attitude. They may not have a title but they know they are better than everyone else & unlike there muggle counter parts that included the royal family ;-) .

And Mugglegirl0908 as I don’t really see E.Prince settling for a Muggle husband an old pure blood line that has gone Squib one or two generations back(and there fore only have had one or at the most two muggles marry into it)…well there’s a though to that.<“the families of old and aristocratic lineage who have NO titles.”
In HBP we are clearly told that the wizerding world doses not have nobility so you have been justified in that. Narcessam is right however in that nobility could have got magic or magic folk picking up titles but the wizerding world simply dose not care. They are British however & are aware of the crown, nobility, society and so on and so forth. And I am sure that while they may find blood purity more worthy of bragging about they do try to keep up with the Jones as it were.

This leads us to people like the Malfoy’s who do seem like “the families of old and aristocratic lineage who have NO titles.” The name, the manor house, the haughty attitude. They may not have a title but they know they are better than everyone else & unlike there muggle counter parts that included the royal family ;-) .

And Mugglegirl0908 as I don’t really see E.Prince settling for a Muggle husband an old pure blood line that has gone Squib one or two generations back(and there fore only have had one or at the most two muggles marry into it)…well there’s a though to that.<“the families of old and aristocratic lineage who have NO titles.”
[info]tanit_goddess wrote:
Sep. 10th, 2006 10:54 pm (UTC)
In HBP we are clearly told that the wizerding world doses not have nobility so you have been justified in that. Narcessam is right however in that nobility could have got magic or magic folk picking up titles but the wizerding world simply dose not care. They are British however & are aware of the crown, nobility, society and so on and so forth. And I am sure that while they may find blood purity more worthy of bragging about they do try to keep up with the Jones as it were.

This leads us to people like the Malfoy’s who do seem like “the families of old and aristocratic lineage who have NO titles.” The name, the manor house, the haughty attitude. They may not have a title but they know they are better than everyone else & unlike there muggle counter parts that included the royal family ;-) .

And Mugglegirl0908 as I don’t really see E.Prince settling for a Muggle husband an old pure blood line that has gone Squib one or two generations back(and there fore only have had one or at the most two muggles marry into it)…well there’s a though to that.

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